[libre-riscv-dev] [Bug 374] New: add repo on github that points to git.libre-soc.org as a way to increase searchability

[libre-riscv-dev] [Bug 374] New: add repo on github that points to git.libre-soc.org as a way to increase searchability

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.libre-soc.org/show_bug.cgi?id=374

            Bug ID: 374
           Summary: add repo on github that points to git.libre-soc.org as
                    a way to increase searchability
           Product: Libre-RISC-V Website
           Version: unspecified
          Hardware: All
                OS: All
            Status: CONFIRMED
          Severity: enhancement
          Priority: ---
         Component: website
          Assignee: lkcl@lkcl.net
          Reporter: programmerjake@gmail.com
                CC: libre-riscv-dev@lists.libre-riscv.org
   NLnet milestone: ---

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[libre-riscv-dev] [Bug 374] add repo on github that points to git.libre-soc.org as a way to increase searchability

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.libre-soc.org/show_bug.cgi?id=374

Yehowshua <yimmanuel3@gatech.edu> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 CC|                            |yimmanuel3@gatech.edu

--- Comment #1 from Yehowshua <yimmanuel3@gatech.edu> ---
Interesting idea.
I had considered setting up a Github mirror to do this.
Alain or Luke would have to configure it to push.

Yehowshua

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[libre-riscv-dev] [Bug 374] add repo on github that points to git.libre-soc.org as a way to increase searchability

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.libre-soc.org/show_bug.cgi?id=374

--- Comment #2 from Yehowshua <yimmanuel3@gatech.edu> ---
That is, our core repo on Libre-soc.org pushes to the Github mirror on every
commit.

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[libre-riscv-dev] [Bug 374] add repo on github that points to git.libre-soc.org as a way to increase searchability

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.libre-soc.org/show_bug.cgi?id=374

--- Comment #3 from Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl@lkcl.net> ---
the idea came up in the virtual coffee call today: it is for searchability,
to indicate the existence of the project.  a single file with a README
explaining that libre-soc is a Libre Project (not an "Open Source" one)
with a single link to the website would achieve this.

if the project's source code is actually mirrored *on* github, it indicates
an implicit endorsement by the project that proprietary services are
acceptable.

this GNU page explains the criteria:
https://www.gnu.org/software/repo-criteria.en.html

and this page evaluates commonly available and commonly used services:
https://www.gnu.org/software/repo-criteria-evaluation.html

of course we cannot prevent or prohibit *individuals* from utilising github:
that would be completely inappropriate, and the GNU project goes to some
lengths to explain how best to communicate that effectively and respectfully.

if however we wish to properly demonstrate a committment to ethical principles,
i.e. actually *be* a Libre Project, then respecting the GNU guidelines is
a good example to follow.

grey area: i am... "okay with" the idea of putting a single page README - not
in
any way under an "officially sanctioned" github username (registration of
github.com/libre-soc would be completely inappropriate) - under *personal*
github accounts, just to get at least something into github search criteria,
as long as it is just a single page, with a single link, and a short sentence
explaining that we are a Libre Project, following and respecting the GNU
Ethical Hosting guidelines.

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[libre-riscv-dev] [Bug 374] add repo on github that points to git.libre-soc.org as a way to increase searchability

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.libre-soc.org/show_bug.cgi?id=374

--- Comment #4 from Jacob Lifshay <programmerjake@gmail.com> ---
If I recall correctly, Luke has an issue with hosting our code on GitHub since
that implies we're ok with GitHub being based on proprietary software.

I was thinking of creating a repo that only has a README.md file with links to
libre-soc

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[libre-riscv-dev] [Bug 374] add repo on github that points to git.libre-soc.org as a way to increase searchability

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.libre-soc.org/show_bug.cgi?id=374

--- Comment #5 from Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl@lkcl.net> ---
(In reply to Yehowshua from comment #2)
> That is, our core repo on Libre-soc.org pushes to the Github mirror on every
> commit.

sadly whilst very "convenient", this indicates that our project endorses
github's
unethical practices.  this includes censorship and government sanctioning.

https://sanctum.geek.nz/why-not-github.html

https://www.gnu.org/software/repo-criteria-evaluation.html

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[libre-riscv-dev] [Bug 374] add repo on github that points to git.libre-soc.org as a way to increase searchability

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.libre-soc.org/show_bug.cgi?id=374

--- Comment #6 from Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl@lkcl.net> ---
(In reply to Jacob Lifshay from comment #4)
> If I recall correctly, Luke has an issue with hosting our code on GitHub
> since that implies we're ok with GitHub being based on proprietary software.

a decision was made for this to be an ethical (Libre) project, and for that
to actually mean what it says, rather than just use the word in a way that
leaves us open to accusations of being "Fake Libre" by people familiar with
the FSF and with the GNU project.

whether i *like* the inconvenience and the hassle that results from following
those ethical guidelines is an entirely different conversation! :)

> I was thinking of creating a repo that only has a README.md file with links
> to libre-soc

yeh, this, it is a "grey area".  i can see the sense in it, with people
searching
online - exclusively on github rather than just typing "libre-soc" into a wider
search engine - it would be good to at least have something that points them
here.

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[libre-riscv-dev] [Bug 374] add repo on github that points to git.libre-soc.org as a way to increase searchability

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.libre-soc.org/show_bug.cgi?id=374

--- Comment #7 from Yehowshua <yimmanuel3@gatech.edu> ---
> sadly whilst very "convenient", this indicates that our project endorses
> github's
> unethical practices.  this includes censorship and government sanctioning.

I disagree. Mirroring indicates that we do not endorse their practices.

But COLLABORATING on Github would be a different story.

And for that matter, I generally feel that Github has done a much better job at
handling open source than SourceForge did.
I generally try to maintain personal projects in such a way that migration away
from Github is possible and am careful with personal information.

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[libre-riscv-dev] [Bug 374] add repo on github that points to git.libre-soc.org as a way to increase searchability

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.libre-soc.org/show_bug.cgi?id=374

--- Comment #8 from Jacob Lifshay <programmerjake@gmail.com> ---
if someone wants to create the readme file, I can put it on my github account,
which is probably the best one to use since I'm the one who's been part of
libre-soc the longest who has a github account

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[libre-riscv-dev] [Bug 374] add repo on github that points to git.libre-soc.org as a way to increase searchability

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.libre-soc.org/show_bug.cgi?id=374

--- Comment #9 from Yehowshua <yimmanuel3@gatech.edu> ---
> if someone wants to create the readme file, I can put it on my github
> account, which is probably the best one to use since I'm the one who's been
> part of libre-soc the longest who has a github account

Sounds reasonable to me.

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[libre-riscv-dev] [Bug 374] add repo on github that points to git.libre-soc.org as a way to increase searchability

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.libre-soc.org/show_bug.cgi?id=374

--- Comment #10 from Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl@lkcl.net> ---
(In reply to Yehowshua from comment #7)
> > sadly whilst very "convenient", this indicates that our project endorses
> > github's
> > unethical practices.  this includes censorship and government sanctioning.
> 
> I disagree. Mirroring indicates that we do not endorse their practices.

it sounds reasonable, doesn't it?  simply mirror the code, therefore
we're not actively endorsing unethical practices.

unfortunately, this is a false correlation, that takes some time to unpack.
normally i would explain it in detail, however unfortunately with whitequark
and many many other people who are prominent free software developers
with respected positions and responsibilities believing that i am ordering
people about, dictating to them what to think and what to do, i'm not going to
do that, because if i do so, it would seem like i am simply trying to force
my quotes beliefs quotes onto you.

so i'm going to leave this one to you to work through, to work out what the
false correlation is.

i will however give a starting point, with some questions, and a scenario.
this is something that i do all the time: i deploy reverse-engineering
skills - developed over a 25 year period - to *people*.

this skill is something that many people find alarming and scary (hence
the *real* reason why they think i am quotes ordering them about quotes).


imagine that there is a person, technically capable, who hears of libre-soc.
this imaginary person, they are both ambivalent and also completely unaware
of the ethical aspects of "Libre".  nobody has ever had a conversation with
them about the unbelievably damaging aspects of arbitrary application of
technology without thought.

nobody has ever discussed the Hippocratic Oath as adapted to Technology
and Engineering with them.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Engineer#Oath)

now let us imagine that there are thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds
of thousands of such people.  given that github probably has tens of millions
of users by now, this is not unreasonable.

however the reason for mentioning it is because that implies that there
are thousands to hundreds of thousands of engineers out there who will
see our project and have *NO IDEA* about the ethical responsibilities that
are associated with software and engineering in general.

thus if we have any way of influencing that, we achive a far larger impact
than we might otherwise have expected.

so that is background.


now let's ask some questions.

1. when these hypothetical (ethically ambivalent) people come to a straight
  *MIRROR* of our code, on github, what will they see?

2. what *ACTION* will they take?  in GUI web-development terms, what will
  their browsing profile look like?  what landing pages will they go to?
  what pages will they click through?

in particular - bear in mind that you (and others) have been advocating that
all documentation - basically the entirety of the wiki - be moved to a "docs"
directory, because "this is how github does it".  so this should be taken into
consideration as part of the answers to the questions.


now let us move on to what we would *like* their browsing profile to look
like:

3. where would we *LIKE* them to be browsing?

4. what pages and services would we *LIKE* them to be looking at?


so here is the key:

5. do we want these people to remain 100% on the github pages?

6. do we want them to be on http://libre-soc.org and http://systemes-libre.org?


so, let me know.  (6) is really important.  we might *actually* want people to
completely fail to come to our websites.  we might actually want to send out
the message, "hey, we are completely technically incompetent, we are unable to
find the technical skill and take the responsibility for hosting our own
material, we completely abdicate that responsibility to an outside third party
known by the name 'github'."

whilst this may sound completely ridiculous and over-the-top, i *genuinely* and
honestly don't know, Yehowshua, because you keep advocating that we should use
these services.

so please note: there's no "demands" here.  these are *open* questions that
people need to decide *for themselves* whether they should be discussed and
evaluated.

or ignored.

i have, personally, gone through these questions over a period of about 20
years and come to my own conclusions.

however it is clear to me - and continues to be clear - that many people simply
*do not* go rigorously through this process of evaluation.

i cannot force *anyone* to go through this process.  that is not how it works.

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[libre-riscv-dev] [Bug 374] add repo on github that points to git.libre-soc.org as a way to increase searchability

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.libre-soc.org/show_bug.cgi?id=374

--- Comment #11 from Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl@lkcl.net> ---
(In reply to Jacob Lifshay from comment #8)
> if someone wants to create the readme file, I can put it on my github
> account, which is probably the best one to use since I'm the one who's been
> part of libre-soc the longest who has a github account

good idea.  we'll be able to do that when there is consensus.

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